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digest 1997-01-30 #001
11:28 PM 1/29/97 -0800
From: "Society for Literature & Science"
Daily SLS Email Digest
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 00:35:51 -0800
From: Robert Maxwell Young
Subject: Re: idiot question--and fast!
From memory, it's the last paragraph, and the actual words are
'entangled
bank'. Best, Bob Young
>I'm teaching a class tomorrow and I'm trying to locate the fabled
>"tangled bank" passage in Darwin. Is there one, or am I
simply
>projecting (substituting? condensating? pick your favorite
Freudian
>dyanmic) one from _Walden_ and _Island of Dr. Moreau_?
>
>Thanks.
>
>--Mike Merrill
__________________________________________
Robert Maxwell Young: robert@rmy1.demon.co.uk 26 Freegrove Rd., London
N7
9RQ, Eng. tel.+44 171 607 8306 fax.+44 171 609 4837 Professor of
Psychotherapy and Psychoanalytic Studies, Centre for Psychotherapeutic
Studies, University of Sheffield. Home page and writings:
http://www.shef.ac.uk/~psysc/
Process Press publications:
http://www.shef.ac.uk/~psysc/process_press/index.html
'One must imagine Sisyphus happy.' - Camus
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 05:50:56 -0800
From: Joseph Duemer
Subject: Re: idiot question--and fast!
My recollection is that the passage occurs in the last paragraph, not
of
the Origin, but of Descent of Man.
Joe Duemer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 06:23:14 -0800
From: Marc Damashek
Subject: Re: idiot question--and fast!
Working from an electronic copy of Origin of Species, there are two
references:
In the section entitled " Complex Relations of all Animals and
Plants to
each other in the
Struggle for Existence", about 20% of the way into the book:
...When we look at the plants and bushes clothing an entangled
bank, we are tempted to attribute their proportional numbers and kinds
to what we call chance. But how false a view is this! Every one has
heard that when an American forest is cut down a very different
vegetation springs up; but it has been observed that ancient Indian
ruins in the southern United States, which must formerly have been
cleared of trees, now display the same beautiful diversity and
proportion of kinds as in the surrounding virgin forest...
As noted in other responses, in the last paragraph of the book:
It is interesting to contemplate a tangled bank, clothed with many
plants of many kinds, with birds singing on the bushes, with various
insects flitting about, and with worms crawling through the damp
earth, and to reflect that these elaborately constructed forms, so
different from each other, and dependent upon each other in so complex
a manner, have all been produced by laws acting around us. These laws,
taken in the largest sense, being Growth with Reproduction;
Inheritance which is almost implied by reproduction; Variability
from the indirect and direct action of the conditions of life and from
use and disuse: a Ratio of Increase so high as to lead to a Struggle
for Life, and as a consequence to Natural Selection, entailing
Divergence of Character and the Extinction of less-improved forms.
Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most
exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the
production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is
grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been
originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and
that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed
law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most
beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Marc Damashek
>I'm teaching a class tomorrow and I'm trying to locate the fabled
>"tangled bank" passage in Darwin. Is there one, or am I
simply
>projecting (substituting? condensating? pick your favorite
Freudian
>dyanmic) one from _Walden_ and _Island of Dr. Moreau_?
>
>Thanks.
>
>--Mike Merrill
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 06:41:08 -0800
From: Carol Colatrella
Subject: Re: idiot question--and fast!
>My recollection is that the passage occurs in the last paragraph,
not of
>the Origin, but of Descent of Man.
>
>Joe Duemer
Robert Young is correct: "entangled," Origin of Species, and
last paragraph.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 07:01:24 -0800
From: Joseph Duemer
Subject: Re: idiot question--and fast!
I stand corrected. But isn't it interesting how many of us had some
sense of the passage--I suspect because of its wider philosophical
implications. Which is why, I think, I got crossed up with the
Descent's
last paragraph, which also features a bank, I believe, inhabited by the
figure of the savage that so fascinated the 19th century.
Joseph Duemer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 08:19:53 -0800
From: richard nash
Subject: Re: idiot question--and fast!
Joseph,
I believe it is not the final, but the penultimate, paragraph of
_Descent_ that contains a vivid memory where the "bank" is
"a wild and
broken shore," and where what is "tangled" (not
"entangled") is the long
hair of the Fuegians who provoke for Darwin the astonished reflection,
"such were our ancestors."
Richard
On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Joseph Duemer wrote:
> I stand corrected. But isn't it interesting how many of us had
some
> sense of the passage--I suspect because of its wider philosophical
> implications. Which is why, I think, I got crossed up with the
Descent's
> last paragraph, which also features a bank, I believe, inhabited by
the
> figure of the savage that so fascinated the 19th century.
>
> Joseph Duemer
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 08:25:49 -0800
From: "Dr. Donald J. McGraw"
Subject: Re: idiot question--and fast!
It is an interesting feature of SLS that much discussion goes on about
science, but little knowledge seems to exist concerning the subject.
Does
no one have a copy of _Origin_ on his/her shelf?
The passage is is on pg. 489 (next to last page) and begins: "It
is
interesting to contemplate an entangled bank, clothed with many plants
of
many kinds..."
Regards from a biologist/historian of biology.
-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Donald J. McGraw, Associate Provost
University of San Diego |
5998 Alcala' Park | "What man really fears is not
San Diego, CA 92110-2492 | so much extinction, but
Voice: 619-260-4553 | extinction with insignificance."
FAX: 619-260-2210 | Ernest Becker
mcgraw@acusd.edu |
-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Joseph Duemer wrote:
> My recollection is that the passage occurs in the last paragraph,
not of
> the Origin, but of Descent of Man.
>
> Joe Duemer
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 08:43:38 -0800
From: Robert Maxwell Young
Subject: Re: idiot question--and fast!
The full text of _On the Origin of Species_ is on the web at
http://www.shef.ac.uk/uni/projects/gpp/Tapestry/science/theori1.html
The last paragraph:
It is interesting to contemplate an entangled bank, clothed with many
plants of
many kinds, with birds singing on the bushes, with various insects
flitting
about, and with worms crawling through the damp earth, and to reflect
that
these elaborately constructed forms, so different from each other, and
dependent upon each other in so complex a manner, have all been
produced by laws acting around us. These laws, taken in the largest
sense,
being Growth with Reproduction; Inheritance which is almost implied by
reproduction; Variability from the indirect and direct action of the
conditions of life and from use and disuse: a Ratio of Increase so high
as to
lead to a Struggle for Life, and as a consequence to Natural Selection,
entailing Divergence of Character and the Extinction of less-improved
forms. Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most
exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the
production
of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view
of
life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the
Creator
into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone
cycling on
according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning
endless
forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being
evolved.
From memory, it's the last paragraph, and the actual words are
'entangled
bank'. Best, Bob Young
>I'm teaching a class tomorrow and I'm trying to locate the fabled
>"tangled bank" passage in Darwin. Is there one, or am I
simply
>projecting (substituting? condensating? pick your favorite
Freudian
>dyanmic) one from _Walden_ and _Island of Dr. Moreau_?
>
>Thanks.
>
>--Mike Merrill
__________________________________________
Robert Maxwell Young: robert@rmy1.demon.co.uk 26 Freegrove Rd., London
N7
9RQ, Eng. tel.+44 171 607 8306 fax.+44 171 609 4837 Professor of
Psychotherapy and Psychoanalytic Studies, Centre for Psychotherapeutic
Studies, University of Sheffield. Home page and writings:
http://www.shef.ac.uk/~psysc/
Process Press publications:
http://www.shef.ac.uk/~psysc/process_press/index.html
'One must imagine Sisyphus happy.' - Camus
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 08:44:34 -0800
From: garbutt@wvnvm.wvnet.edu (K. Garbutt)
Subject: Re: idiot question--and fast!
Hope this is in time:
The quote is from the last para of "On the Origin of the
Species" and
starts "It is interesting to contemplate a tangled bank, clothed
with many
kinds of plants, with birds singing on the bushes ...." Sixth
Edition
Keith Garbutt
>I'm teaching a class tomorrow and I'm trying to locate the fabled
>"tangled bank" passage in Darwin. Is there one, or am I
simply
>projecting (substituting? condensating? pick your favorite
Freudian
>dyanmic) one from _Walden_ and _Island of Dr. Moreau_?
>
>Thanks.
>
>--Mike Merrill
*******************************************************************
* Keith Garbutt *
* Chair, Department of Biology *
* PO Box 6057 *
* West Virginia University *
* Morgantown WV, 26506 *
* USA *
* (304) 293 5394 *
* garbutt@wvnvm.wvnet.edu or kgarbutt@wvu.edu *
*******************************************************************
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 10:17:38 -0800
From: garbutt@wvnvm.wvnet.edu (K. Garbutt)
Subject: Tangled Quotes
The Idiot Question thread has led to several postings as to the exact
nature of the quote (see the one below). I also posted a version -
copied
directly fron the Random House version of the sixth edition of
"Origin of
the Species" in this edition it quite clearly says "a tangled
bank". I
would be interested to knoew which edition the other "quoters"
were using.
Is this another example of Darwin's own "revisionism" or is it
the result
of later editors messing with the text? By chance does anyone on the
litarary side of the group know?
Keith Garbutt
>It is an interesting feature of SLS that much discussion goes on
about
>science, but little knowledge seems to exist concerning the subject.
Does
>no one have a copy of _Origin_ on his/her shelf?
>
>The passage is is on pg. 489 (next to last page) and begins:
"It is
>interesting to contemplate an entangled bank, clothed with many
plants of
>many kinds..."
>
>Regards from a biologist/historian of biology.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Dr. Donald J. McGraw, Associate Provost
>University of San Diego |
>5998 Alcala' Park | "What man really fears is not
>San Diego, CA 92110-2492 | so much extinction, but
>Voice: 619-260-4553 | extinction with
insignificance."
>FAX: 619-260-2210 | Ernest Becker
>mcgraw@acusd.edu |
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
*******************************************************************
* Keith Garbutt *
* Chair, Department of Biology *
* PO Box 6057 *
* West Virginia University *
* Morgantown WV, 26506 *
* USA *
* (304) 293 5394 *
* garbutt@wvnvm.wvnet.edu or kgarbutt@wvu.edu *
*******************************************************************
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 10:19:31 -0800
From: Joseph Duemer
Subject: Re: idiot question--and fast!
I take exception to the phrase "little actual knowledge seems to
exist
concerning the subject." To set Dr. McGraw's mind at ease, I was
writing
from my study at home; in my office at school I have several editions
of
the book(s) in question. In fact, however, I would draw the opposit
conclusion from this morning's flurry of postings: For a large number
of
the members of this list, the original phrase "tangled bank"
"rang a
bell--several bells, in my case.
Joseph Duemer
On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Dr. Donald J. McGraw wrote:
> It is an interesting feature of SLS that much discussion goes on
about
> science, but little knowledge seems to exist concerning the
subject. Does
> no one have a copy of _Origin_ on his/her shelf?
>
> The passage is is on pg. 489 (next to last page) and begins:
"It is
> interesting to contemplate an entangled bank, clothed with many
plants of
> many kinds..."
>
> Regards from a biologist/historian of biology.
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dr. Donald J. McGraw, Associate Provost
> University of San Diego |
> 5998 Alcala' Park | "What man really fears is not
> San Diego, CA 92110-2492 | so much extinction, but
> Voice: 619-260-4553 | extinction with
insignificance."
> FAX: 619-260-2210 | Ernest Becker
> mcgraw@acusd.edu |
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Joseph Duemer wrote:
>
> > My recollection is that the passage occurs in the last
paragraph, not of
> > the Origin, but of Descent of Man.
> >
> > Joe Duemer
> >
> >
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 10:48:58 -0800
From: Joseph Duemer
Subject: Re: Tangled Quotes
In reply to K. Garbutt's question about editions, I can only ad that
the
Norton Critical _Darwin_ reprints part of the 6th edition ("tangled
bank")
with the note that it was the last edition published during Darwin's
life.
From the literary side, I'm actually more interested in the fact that
both
_Origin_ and _Descent_ end with the prospect of a tangled bank. What is
Darwin doing rhetorically in these crucial concluding moments of his
most
momentous texts?
Joseph Duemer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 12:57:23 -0800
From: H-NEXA Editor Michael Gregory
Subject: REPLY: Re: idiot question--and fast! (Gregory)
Joe - I find it in _Origin_, NAL/Mentor 1958: "It is interesting
to
contemplate a tangled bank. . . . First sentence, last paragraph. -
Regards, Mike
At 08:45 AM 1/29/97 -0500, you wrote:
>My recollection is that the passage occurs in the last paragraph,
not of
>the Origin, but of Descent of Man.
>
>Joe Duemer
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 13:02:12 -0800
From: H-NEXA Editor Michael Gregory
Subject: Reply: Re: idiot question--and fast! (Gregory)
Interesting indeed! I find the reference on p. 450 NAL/Mentor, where
it
is not "entangled" but "tangled." I suspect we are
using different Darwin
editions.
BTW, I for one am a prof. of English and SLS member. You must be
thinking
of someone else, or another list? (+/-)
Michael Gregory
At 08:21 AM 1/29/97 -0800, you wrote:
>It is an interesting feature of SLS that much discussion goes on
about
>science, but little knowledge seems to exist concerning the subject.
Does
>no one have a copy of _Origin_ on his/her shelf?
>
>The passage is is on pg. 489 (next to last page) and begins:
"It is
>interesting to contemplate an entangled bank, clothed with many
plants of
>many kinds..."
>
>Regards from a biologist/historian of biology.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Dr. Donald J. McGraw, Associate Provost
>University of San Diego |
>5998 Alcala' Park | "What man really fears is not
>San Diego, CA 92110-2492 | so much extinction, but
>Voice: 619-260-4553 | extinction with
insignificance."
>FAX: 619-260-2210 | Ernest Becker
>mcgraw@acusd.edu |
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Joseph Duemer wrote:
>
>> My recollection is that the passage occurs in the last
paragraph, not of
>> the Origin, but of Descent of Man.
>>
>> Joe Duemer
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Jan 1997 17:07:07 -0800
From: "Dr. Donald J. McGraw"
Subject: Re: Reply: Re: idiot question--and fast! (Gregory)
My copy of _Origin_ is the Atheneum/Harvard facsimile first edition
issue
of 1964 with the intro by Ernst Mayr. I take it that the page (next to
last) and paragraph and word (entangled) are Darwin's original as any
ppg
in the issue not part of the original are given in [], as is pg. [491],
a
biblio of Darwin's major works and falling two ppg after the entangled
bank lines.
I certainly did not intend to offend, but, as a scientist and historian
of
same, I am still stinging from Treichler's remarks and my own (highly
likely ignorant and limited vision!) of why science studies so often
seem
to be done so isolated from the science itself.
As I have told several persons at the last SLS meeting, I was
astonished
to learn from (more than one person), upon hearing a session on
Darwin two years ago at the SLS meeting in L.A., that understanding
natural selection, from a biological standpoint, was unimportant to
doing
Darwin as literature. Indeed, numerous speakers seemed not to
understand
Darwin at the most fundamental level, vis-a-vis biology. I am still
dumbfounded, but have concluded that Snow is still alive and well and I
am
just now finding that out.
I have offered to do the keynote address for the next meeting from the
view of a scientist in response to Treichler, but am sure that my
ill-considered remarks of my earlier post would now surely disqualify
me,
particularly as one to argue that SLS should embrace scientists and not
give the impression that Treichler's views are those of the majority.
I swore I would not slip into such an attitude, but I remain frail, it
seems.
Cheers.
-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Donald J. McGraw, Associate Provost
University of San Diego |
5998 Alcala' Park | "What man really fears is not
San Diego, CA 92110-2492 | so much extinction, but
Voice: 619-260-4553 | extinction with insignificance."
FAX: 619-260-2210 | Ernest Becker
mcgraw@acusd.edu |
-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
